Curse

Coloneh · Mar 07, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

Yes I am quite serious. How is it anymore effective than say WoH, as described by your usage? Which is on most Hybrid Prot bars.

If you want red bar up, use WoH. Not RoF. Sounds like you've been using RoF inappropiately. Like I said, it's a great panic button skill. It certainly has saved many of asses on many of occassion. But, as I stated: in PvE NM I have no need for it.

RoF can be used to anticipate damage unlike a spike heal. It is also quite a bit safer to cast rof on a terget at relatively high health than to wait for a target to hit low health and hit them with WoH.

I do see your point though, RoF is less useful with WoH on your bar, but not everyone uses WoH. I would rather have RC. kiss and RoF fill the spike heal role enough for me.

ender6 · Mar 08, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

RoF can be used to anticipate damage unlike a spike heal. It is also quite a bit safer to cast rof on a terget at relatively high health than to wait for a target to hit low health and hit them with WoH.

I do see your point though, RoF is less useful with WoH on your bar, but not everyone uses WoH. I would rather have RC. kiss and RoF fill the spike heal role enough for me.

My point really had nothing to do with one having or not having WoH on their bar. Incidentally there really is no need to throw RoF onto a target with relatively high health, sounds like waste a of energy to me.

Tyla · Mar 08, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

My point really had nothing to do with one having or not having WoH on their bar. Incidentally there really is no need to throw RoF onto a target with relatively high health, sounds like waste a of energy to me.

Only if you're healing people it is.
Mitigation through pre-prot stops people bars from moving down.

ender6 · Mar 08, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Only if you're healing people it is.
Mitigation through pre-prot stops people bars from moving down.

Um, yeah, I'm well aware of that "use" of RoF. Still a waste of energy. I won't go in depth, but if you want to mitigate damage, try something like shielding hands, SoA, Gaurdian, etc.

I never stated that I don't like RoF, I simply stated that I think it's leetness is greatly exaggerated. Further, I think its notoriety arose during the days of the boon prot. Nowadays in PvE NM I use more proactive skills.

@Coloneh: Incidentally if you are playing RC, I am sure your group must have a secondary monk that has an actual heal, like ZB/WoH/HB healer. You could let them use their 5e cast to bring the bar up when it is necessary, while you use more functional prots.

Here is where I value RoF: I'm in TA and I have a Megabane camping me, a warrior on me with KDs, and someone on my team is about to die if I don't get a cast off. Or maybe someone is getting spiked, because I faied to pre-prot or the prot got stripped, in either case, a quick RoF is a life saver to give me a second to WoH and PS (for example). Or maybe I have diversion on me, and If I don't get a ZB off someone will die. So maybe I will kill diversion with *gasp* RoF. Those are scenarios where it is worth using.

In NM PvE nothing of that nature will happen.

Tyla · Mar 08, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

RoF is spammable, unlike them.
RoF is like a small, cheap version of Spirit Bond.
And for Diversion, Pre-Veil.
RoF should be on any Prot bar as it is imo, the strongest damage mitigation tool you can get.

Pyro maniac · Mar 08, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

I'm not a huge fan of RoF either. I usually run 'red bars up' elites and they're as efficient or even more then RoF.
I'm only using it when going pure prot to have at least some form of healing, which I do rarely.

ender6 · Mar 08, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

RoF is spammable, unlike them.

Bad monks spam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

RoF is like a small, cheap version of Spirit Bond.

Except SpirtBond last for 10 hits RoF 1.....Yeah great comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

And for Diversion, Pre-Veil.

So you've never been hit with multiple hexes that beat the recharge time of HV? Please if you didn't understand my point don't waste my time with silly retorts.
Incidentally by that logic, if things worked perfectly, pre-prot/preveil/etc, there would be no need for RoF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

RoF should be on any Prot bar as it is imo, the strongest damage mitigation tool you can get.

And you are entitled to your oppinion. Though I think that is funny that the strongest dmg mitigation you have is RoF. You may want to look into Prot Spirit, Aegis, Gaurdian, SoA, etc.

Tyla · Mar 08, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

Bad monks spam.

I said it's spammable. It's ready every time you need it.

Quote:

Except SpirtBond last for 10 hits RoF 1.....Yeah great comparison.

Yeye, and Spirit Bond needs +60 damage to take any effect.

Quote:

So you've never been hit with multiple hexes that beat the recharge time of HV? Please if you didn't understand my point don't waste my time with silly retorts.

If you don't understand what Pre-Veiling is I think you should stay in PvE.
Holy Veil is a MAINTAINED Enchantment, and double-clicking it when you see Diversion pop up is key, especially because it makes hexes cast on you take 2x as much time to cast.

Quote:

Incidentally by that logic, if things worked perfectly, pre-prot/preveil/etc, there would be no need for RoF.

And what are you doing when you cast RoF before a spike, heavy damage ect.?
PRE-PROTTING.

Quote:

And you are entitled to your oppinion. Though I think that is funny that the strongest dmg mitigation you have is RoF. You may want to look into Prot Spirit, Aegis, Gaurdian, SoA, etc.

...SoA can be stripped easier and takes alot of hits for it to be at maximum effect. Unlike RoF where you get that nice quick-cast damage mitigation.

Same case for Guardian and Aegis they can be stripped - Enchantment Removal is there, you know. And before a spike you're supposed to strip blocks ect.

Prot-Spirit is strong, but RoF is also nice, the combination of the 2 is strong aswell, but RoF is stronger mitigation then PSpirit.

Unless it's some boss in PvE which has been buffed to insanity.

P.S: Don't give such bad points like that.

Burst Cancel · Mar 08, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

If your argument that NM PvE doesn't need RoF, I absolutely agree. Realistically speaking, the only skill that should get major usage in NM is WoH; the rest of your bar is essentially irrelevant.

In all situations where your bar would actually matter, RoF is an incredible tool. It has a number of important features: fast cast, low cost, low recharge, damage *prevention* + healing, and effective against any form of damage except straight "health loss", lifestealing, etc. In terms of strict energy/health efficiency it is outclassed by WoH (which is both elite and slower in every way) and Kiss (under certain conditions), but again, the listed advantages above more than compensate.

Your comparisons to Shielding Hands, Guardian, and SoA are without merit, because RoF is not used in the same way. SH and SoA are only effective against concentrated small-packet damage over extended periods - exactly the opposite of RoF's optimum condition. Guardian is only effective against physicals and there is no guarantee of it actually having any effect; ergo, it is again primarily effective against concentrated fire over a period. Both Guardian and SoA are slow casts; SH and SoA have long recharges.

If the merits of RoF are exaggerated (I don't have an opinion on this particular point), it is primarily because it is not being used correctly and is therefore often a waste of energy. Conditional skills are often like that.

ender6 · Mar 08, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I said it's spammable. It's ready every time you need it.

So you were just telling me the spell description? Not implying that you spam it? Thanks for describing the spell. Who do you think you are fooling?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Yeye, and Spirit Bond needs +60 damage to take any effect.

Um, ok, so I suppose you now further realize the folly of your comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

If you don't understand what Pre-Veiling is I think you should stay in PvE.
Holy Veil is a MAINTAINED Enchantment, and double-clicking it when you see Diversion pop up is key.

Um, are you dense. You Preveil. You get hit with a hex. You remove it, and go to Veil again, and get hit with another and strip that one. Now in comes diversion, but guess what, you are out of veil, because it hasn't recharged yet. If you haven't expereinced something of this caliber then I am positive you have yet to do any PvP outside of AB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

And what are you doing when you cast RoF before a spike, heavy damage ect.?
PRE-PROTTING.

You do realize Prot Spirit is more effective for that? Unless you are refering to a gimick spike like Gothway. Though that type of scenario was covered in my above aforementioned posts. RoF aka panic button.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

...SoA can be stripped easier and takes alot of hits for it to be at maximum effect. Unlike RoF where you get that nice quick-cast damage mitigation.

Same case for Guardian and Aegis they can be stripped - Enchantment Removal is there, you know. And before a spike you're supposed to strip blocks ect.

Prot-Spirit is strong, but RoF is also nice, the combination of the 2 is strong aswell, but RoF is stronger mitigation then PSpirit.

Unless it's some boss in PvE which has been buffed to insanity.

You do realize that RoF can be wanded right off of you, right? Your logic is argumentative with no substance.

I think you need to reconsider the meaning of damage mitigation. The simple fact is RoF is a stop gap spell that you use until you can get the real damage mitigation spell up.

I also realize that you are more or less trolling and simply arguing for the sake of arguing, so I won't bother addressing this topic with you any longer. I will let some other more practiced and patient soul take up the argument if they wish.

Tyla · Mar 08, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

So you were just telling me the spell description? Not implying that you spam it? Thanks for describing the spell. Who do you think you are fooling?

I use it when needed - it's practically always recharged when I need it.

Quote:

Um, ok, so I suppose you now further realize the folly of your comparison.

You can stop anything below 61 damage with RoF for a cheaper cost, and going above 100 damage at that.

Quote:

Um, are you dense. You Preveil. You get hit with a hex. You remove it, and go to Veil again, and get hit with another and strip that one. Now in comes diversion, but guess what, you are out of veil, because it hasn't recharged yet. If you haven't expereinced something of this caliber then I am positive you have yet to do any PvP outside of AB.

You're supposed to use veil for hexes that actually hurt.
I'm positive you're just bad at Monking versus hex pressure ect.
And besides -- in AB, I barely ever see Domination mesmers.

Quote:

You do realize Prot Spirit is more effective for that? Unless you are refering to a gimick spike like Gothway. Though that type of scenario was covered in my above aforementioned posts. RoF aka panic button.

PSpirit doesn't deal with spikes as much, and can be stripped before the spike.
Plus RoF has no effect against BloodSpike.

Quote:

You do realize that RoF can be wanded right off of you, right? Your logic is argumentative with no substance.

I am aware of that, but you have to be quite lucky if you're against someone with a good Monk who watches the battlefield.

Quote:

I think you need to reconsider the meaning of damage mitigation. The simple fact is RoF is a stop gap spell that you use until you can get the real damage mitigation spell up.

RoF at 8 Protection Prayers mitigates up to 100 damage. Tell me how that's not damage mitigation.

Quote:

I also realize that you are more or less trolling and simply arguing for the sake of arguing, so I won't bother addressing this topic with you any longer. I will let some other more practiced and patient soul take up the argument if they wish.

Nope. You're just wrong on the majority of your points.

kel77 · Mar 08, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Let's play nice eh?
On topic, I don't really think RoF is that good for truly skilled monks.

Tyla · Mar 08, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kel77

Let's play nice eh?
On topic, I don't really think RoF is that good for truly skilled monks.

Not you too, kel...
I wanna hear some answers...

Tearz1993 · Mar 08, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

Um, are you dense. You Preveil. You get hit with a hex. You remove it, and go to Veil again, and get hit with another and strip that one. Now in comes diversion, but guess what, you are out of veil, because it hasn't recharged yet. If you haven't expereinced something of this caliber then I am positive you have yet to do any PvP outside of AB.

Because if you aren't in AB nobody can interrupt veil right?

ender6 · Mar 08, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

If your argument that NM PvE doesn't need RoF

That is exatly what I said. This "discussion" began on the first page of the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

In all situations where your bar would actually matter, RoF is an incredible tool. It has a number of important features: fast cast, low cost, low recharge, damage *prevention* + healing, and effective against any form of damage except straight "health loss", lifestealing, etc. In terms of strict energy/health efficiency it is outclassed by WoH (which is both elite and slower in every way) and Kiss (under certain conditions), but again, the listed advantages above more than compensate.

And to this I said I liked RoF, simply that it has been sliding off of my bar more and more lately in NM. I don't think we have any disagreement here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Your comparisons to Shielding Hands, Guardian, and SoA are without merit, because RoF is not used in the same way. SH and SoA are only effective against concentrated small-packet damage over extended periods - exactly the opposite of RoF's optimum condition. Guardian is only effective against physicals and there is no guarantee of it actually having any effect; ergo, it is again primarily effective against concentrated fire over a period. Both Guardian and SoA are slow casts; SH and SoA have long recharges.

I wasn't comparing them, i was actually differentiating them. I stated that Shielding Hands, Aegis, Gaurdian, SoA, etc. Are all forms of damage mitigation. I said that RoF is a panic button skill. A skill used to buy you some time until you stabalize the situation. By the way as you describe all of the specific scenarios that each prot serves, you do realize that good monks don't blindly cast prots. Everything has its place and functionality. To that effect I described what I think RoF is best used for. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

If the merits of RoF are exaggerated (I don't have an opinion on this particular point), it is primarily because it is not being used correctly and is therefore often a waste of energy. Conditional skills are often like that.

I think I was quite clear on this point. Yes I consider it to be quite an "exagerrated" skill. And yes I don't think most PvE monks use it correctly.

ender6 · Mar 08, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tearz1993

Because if you aren't in AB nobody can interrupt veil right?

LOL, out of all of my post you picked this? Sorry if I offended you. My point I believe was obvious sorry if I made it at the expense of AB'ers.

rick1027 · Mar 08, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

ok i think im following what is being said but a few more questions. as in rof you do mean reversal of fortune. as for the prot skill im looking at is something to protect til i can back to heal the target is there any suggestions for this i will always have aegis up by this time and this is only when a target is getting spiked to either reduce the damage or something along that lines. there was a mention of not using the bars. the thing i use now is my map to watch aggro and know where to heal only use the bars for hex and condition removal and its quick looks for some reason thats the only way i can see if they got a condition or hex and which type.

Juno Onuj · Mar 09, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by kel77

On topic, I don't really think RoF is that good for truly skilled monks.

lol, care to explain?

Burst Cancel · Mar 09, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

I'd argue the opposite - RoF gets better the more skilled you are. When you're able to consistently get RoF to trigger for close to its maximum, it's an incredible skill.

kel77 · Mar 11, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Pspirit > spells
guardian > melee
stick wuteva the hell you want on the rest of the bar.